02. Pirates of the Caribbean with RJ Aguiar

RJ Aguiar

Hold up there. You, it's a shilling to tie your boat at the dock and I need to know your name.

...

 

Helen Grossman

Welcome. And Ahoy to the class of 03 podcast where we explore the year 2003 and all the ways it's still affecting us. 20 years later, I'm your host and classmate Helen Grossman. And this week we're talking about pirates before we get into the movie, Pirates. What you probably came here for. There are other pirates of the era that we have to address first because until June 28th, 2003, when the movie came out, the conversation around piracy in 2003 was about music sharing.

And it just so happens that as Jack Sparrow was screaming about the rum 20 years, the swashbuckling file shares of Napster Limewire and Kaza came under attack by forces perhaps as great as the Black pearl herself. That's right. I'm talking about the recording industry. So just to rewind a few years, it all started in 1999 when the Ria A the recording industry association of America sued Napster that suit alleged that Napster is similar to a giant online pirate bazaar it provides

its users with means to engage in massive copyright infringement. In April 2003, the recording industry sued four college students for developing search engines and file sharing networks that allowed students on their campuses to download each other's files. So in addition to alleging that these four students were running the software that enabled this illegal downloading.

The lawsuits also alleged that the students had themselves downloaded music illegally. These were the very first lawsuits filed against individual people for file sharing. Then in the early summer of 2003 A US Appeals Court issued a ruling that required internet providers to identify subscribers suspected of sharing music and movies illegally.

Meaning that that music companies could force providers like Comcast or Verizon to unmask the identity behind your anonymous. This is totally coming from, you know, a made up place but you're in a completely anonymous crazy girl, Grl 55 56 user name, your user name, obviously fictional. And after this ruling came out, the Ria A announced in June of 2003 that it would begin filing lawsuits against individual users who they suspected were illegally sharing music files, not

just the people who were developing the software for it immediately. They begin investigating thousands of individuals A K A subpoenaing identification information about anonymous people on September 8th 2003, the day that I became a woman. The Ria A announced its first batch of lawsuits against 261 people. Some of the people sued included a 12 year old girl who lived with her single mother in public housing in New York and a Massachusetts grandmother accused of

downloading hardcore rap music. No judgment. At this point, the music industry was in dire straits in a September 2003 article in Rolling Stone. Jenny Essy wrote when the recording industry announced in June that it would begin filing individual lawsuits against hundreds of illegal file swappers. It was not just a bad pr move, it was a signal that the music business is more desperate than ever.

The itunes store which allowed individuals to buy single songs for 99 cents apiece was introduced in April 2003 for Mac users who at the time were only 5% of personal computer owners. And then later itunes was introduced in October 2003 for Windows users. And of course itunes offers this glimpse into what music would become and what in many ways it still is today.

But in the summer of 2003, that ship had sailed. If the recording industry had been paying close enough attention, they would have been able to see that the public was clearly and firmly rooting for the pirates, specifically one pirate. In this episode of class of 03, I chatted with my friend and my frequent collaborator RJ Aguiar. He's a producer, writer, digital strategist and Scorpio. And it seemed pretty clear to me that he remains as enthusiastic about Pirates of the

Caribbean today as he was in 2003 when it came out. And RJ S from Tampa home of the Buccaneers who he pointed out to me also happened to win the Super Bowl in 2003. So it really was the year of piracy on just about every level. As a word of caution, we do discuss the allegations against Johnny Depp at around the 37 minute mark. So please take care while listening. Here's my conversation with RJ about the other pirates of 2003 pirates of the Caribbean.

...

 

RJ Aguiar

Ok. So my name is RJ Aguiar. He him his or sir, if you're nasty. I was I it was my finishing my freshman year, starting my sophomore year of high school in Tampa, Florida, which already sort of segues into like why we were so obsessed with Pirates of the Caribbean when it came out that year is because the Bucks had just won their first Super Bowl. And so Tampa was was I made already like we were so we were so leaning hard into this also.

Tampa has this annual festival called Gasparilla. It's one of the reasons our, our football team is the Buccaneers because we have our own like knockoff Mardi Gras Festival, but it's pirate themed every year. And so Tampa's already go go figure a very piratey town. And we had just won our first Super Bowl and then Pirates of the Caribbean, they, they released the film for Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean.

And we're right next to Disney World. And so that also lives in our ethos, like we could not have been positioned to be like a better audience for that film. And thank God for that because no, like no one expected that film to do well, nobody expected it had no business being as good as it was. And so the fact that people like everybody else subsequently jumped on like the pirate bandwagon. Are you like my friend group for like the rest of high school were we were pirates.

Like we called ourselves the rum runners. We each had like my friend Clarissa, who I still love to this day. She's on the wall behind me actually. like she made us all like shirts one year when we were tailgating, my pirate nickname was Roy Jager because it's RJ. And then you flip the the Jolly Roger. It was like we and we went opening day dressed as pirates and then afterwards we went to the beach and like, you know, drank.

 

Helen Grossman

Do you remember your outfit? Do you remember your pirate outfit that you wore to the opening day?

 

RJ Aguiar

I took my dad like Austin Powers cost it. So it was, it was this a it was just like velvet with very, very not bits. Is this like cheap velour like suit jacket with like frills built on it and, and you know what I mean? I had the Austin and so I used that and I built a whole pirate look around that where I had just like, you know, t underneath and I had, I, I was already growing my hair long and so I tied it

up in a bandanna and I could already, I could already grow what can legally be considered a beard in high school. But it, it doesn't, it's looking back, it's not how it read.

 

Helen Grossman

So it sounds like you and your friends had this sort of beautiful rowdy experience seeing the premiere or the film on opening. Were there moments where you guys remember like, were you guys cheering?

 

RJ Aguiar

Were you sort of 0 100% when will and Elizabeth finally kissed at the end of the film, like we'd cheered the things we knew about ourselves and the people that we were watching like, or, or thought we knew at the time.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

Yeah, we were just young and, and arrogant and stupid and boy did that film capture it so perfectly and let's just go right in, I mean, yeah, when the film started, I wrote in my notes, I was like, this is a banger.

 

Helen Grossman

It's so funny. I'm laughing so hard. And then honestly, as the film went on, I was like, oh my God, we're on hour three and our like seventh Sword Fight. You know, it felt it's so hard because I weigh these two things where I'm like, my memory of this film is that it's so good and then I watch it again and it's like the good parts of it are these beautiful sort of momentary pieces.

But there's all this extra stuff in it. So much swashbuckling, so much like incredible sword fighting choreography. But like, I don't need 30 minutes of a zombie, zombie pirates fighting in the Royal Navy. You know, why not?

 

RJ Aguiar

Why not?

 

Helen Grossman

Why not?

 

RJ Aguiar

I mean, Disney didn't do action. You know, that was, that was such a thing. It's like Disney hadn't really gone that far, especially in that era, like the, like the, you, you didn't really have very action heavy Disney films. And so it was, it was, it, it felt refreshing. It's all, it was also Disney's first PG 13 release. You know, it was for the time.

This was something that we, we weren't used to having especially much less for a movie about a ride that opened in California in the sixties and in Florida in the seventies. And this thing was so old news. It wasn't even, you know, it, it, it, it, it had not been relevant for like decades, neither had pirate films. That's the other thing is, is they hadn't, they, they had jokes in Hollywood because I've, I've since as an aspiring filmmaker also done extensive research on the making

of this film and what, what was the weird alchemy that happened at Disney to make it possible. And there really is, yeah, like, like there's so much about it that there's, there's a lot of weird coincidences. Like the fact that, like Michael Eisner had told them to, like, not make, not make it so not make any of the references to the ride obvious, you know, they're all very subtle.

I, I if, if you, if you look at them and I think that's one of the things that works so well in its favor is, you know, the, at the end of the film, you know, when they go into the, the Pirate cave, they were supposed to have their boat was supposed to go down to waterfall like in the ride and then they're like, no nick that and you're like, yeah, OK. Yeah.

Like the fact that it, it, it, it is about, it's not about the ride. You know, it's not about the ride the way that like the haunted mansion because also people don't, other people, nothing people don't realize is they had done other movies that are about Disney rides. They had done a haunted mansion movie starring Eddie Murphy that same year, which, which happened that came out after pirates and that was a flop.

And then you had the Country Bears starring Haley Joel Osment, the, the, the year before that flopped because it was all so all of a sudden, here's this Jerry Bruckheimer joint that it, it can, can we curse? I don't know. Of course it fucks it fucks it totally fucked. And we weren't used to getting that from Disney. And I think that was, that was part of the weird charm of that thing of like here was something that felt so we didn't even have this word back then, but it felt so like the idea

of a Disney Ride movie was so cringe and yet it comes out of nowhere with all of this like really good action and these effects and these one liners, the script is re is actually really well done.

 

Helen Grossman

It's funny, I mean, it's the songwriters who did Shrek who did Aladdin.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

It's funny, it has those elements to it, but it's also smart, you know, I'm disinclined to acres.

 

RJ Aguiar

Your request means no.

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah, I was, I was reading that the screenwriters were on set as they were filming and there's this very, you can really tell that they take the script in a certain direction based on Johnny Depp's performance, right? That he the way that he body this character, the way that he speaks, the way that he talks, the way that he behaves, informs the way that everyone's

reacting to him, the way that lines are being crafted. And you can actually see the movie being made in real time because this is a character who was invented by Johnny Depp, right?

 

RJ Aguiar

Pretty much. Yeah. A AAA as, and, and begrudge as much as it, it, I have to be grudgingly admit it now. Like it is so good. Like it is, it is brilliant in its conception and in its execution, you know, the, the, because, because, you know, you talk about the origin of it and how he, the, the inspiration of it was, he had read that like the pirates were like rock stars of the era and based his mannerisms off of Keith Richards from the Rolling Stones and be really literal with it.

Right. Well, and what's so funny is Keith Richard shows up in movie three as his father for that, that same reason. And, and, and I think in movie four. Yeah. Point is he shows up multiple times later as Jack's father, you can't, you, you can't think of the film without thinking of that performance now. Like it, it, it becomes, you're right, such a, such a like this so that the rest of the characters kind of revolve around energetically.

Yeah, I will say though that like it's, it is, I mean, it is Jeff's Dep's performance, but it's not just like what he says. I, I notated like when I was rewatching this, I mean, I've seen this movie hundreds of times. But 11 of the things that stood out in my last rewatch was he has his, in his character introduction is two minutes long and he says one line.

 

Helen Grossman

And, and yet when he, in his introduction, he's standing on the, the, I don't know ship terminology but the mass of the ship and, and, and you don't realize until two minutes in that the ship is sinking and he's pulling into this harbor and it's very triumphant.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

He gets the hero's music and then the camera pulls out and you, and then you see it like sink into and it's just such a perfect and then like, you know, it hold up there.

 

RJ Aguiar

You, it's a shilling to tie your boat at the dock and I, I need to know your name. What do you say to Three Shillings? And we forget the name. Welcome to Port Royal. Mr Smith walks off, steals the changed purse. That's it.

 

Movie Clip

Hold up there. You, it's a shilling to tie up your boat at the dock. And a we need to know your name. What?

 

RJ Aguiar

Inside of Three Shirley, we forget the, it's two minutes of excellent storytelling because within two minutes of screen time in one line, you know exactly who this guy is and why you're rooting for him. And it is, I hope posterity like studies it for, for what it is.

There's so many extra beats of, of comedy and joy and enjoyment just because you love watching his mannerisms and it's, it's just wild how off the wall it seemed at the time and yet how obvious of a choice it is. Now after the fact.

 

Helen Grossman

Well, one of the reviews actually Roger Ebert, when he reviewed it, he said that there has never been a pirate or for that matter, a human being like this in any other movie. So do you think this is true? Do you think this is still true?

 

RJ Aguiar

It's definitely not still true much in the same way that like the Matrix transformed action movies after 99 and everybody started incorporating kind of like stylistic elements and whatever you can definitely see. Now there are a, there are actors in these kind of franchise films that you can tell they're allowed to take kind of bigger swings because they can point and say, hey, look, you know, but look at what Johnny Depp did and, and, and it's also worth mentioning too that like

there were concerns about his star power and his bank ability too because he had only really done like more cult films. And so, yeah, they were very concerned if, if Johnny Depp could carry a AAA more broad appeal, you know, Disney type of film. And I think that's also the other way that, that the success of that film really really was seminal because I think III I it's hard to picture like the emo era happening without, you know, an archetype like Jack sparrow that is squishy and it

fam but still straight supposedly, although I'd say he's definitely cod in his queer, like he gives because Keith Richards is bisexual. So I would say he's, you know, so he's, he's kind of vaguely effeminate. He's alt, he has tattoos. He's got like, like all of these things that aren't so clean cut and, and, and yeah, you, you definitely, I think so much of, of the mo, the alt rock, you know, zeitgeist and the emo zeitgeist that was already kind of peaking during that era.

I think it got like a huge boost and why like all of the hot topic gals were obsessed with joining up all that more, all, all the more after that performance because now he was like a household name, right?

 

Helen Grossman

Let's talk about the casting. I mean, you mentioned we're talking about Johnny Depp. Yes, but I want to talk about Orlando Bloom and Karen as well because you mentioned you clap for Orlando and you were cheering for Orlando when, when are cheering for both of them when they kiss at the end. Orlando.

I mean, it's hard, it's hard not to be eclipsed in this film by Johnny Depp. He's really the sort of main star power but hit the way that he plays it so straight, especially, you know, coming off of Lord of the Rings. I mean, Orlando Bloom is kind of at a peak in his career in 03. This is a big freaking.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah, it certainly wasn't kingdom of heaven. So,

 

Helen Grossman

so he, he's brought in as the supposed hero of this film, which, which makes sense, right? Audiences know him from Lord Lord of the Rings, the franchise. And, and so there's a familiarity there, he's obviously like so conventionally attractive. I would say that probably 2003, you know, maybe the early two thousands to 2005 6 is like Peak Orlando. And our first, our first introduction to him in this film is actually also a comedic moment and I'm not sure if you noted this when you

saw it. But yeah, you know, but we see him and he's like touching a lighting fixture and he breaks it and then he sticks it in his pocket. Yeah, which I also really like because to me, there are lots of moments in this film that are like reminding you of the artifice of it. All of almost that it is like a ride, right? That it is, it's a set, it's constructed. So is a ride, you know, you sort of get these moments like that. You know.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah. But, but at the same time it's not over, it's done very subtly and it's done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and also to think of like who all the other people who almost got this role. Wait, hold on, let me, I'm looking at my notes. So beat it. He beat out Toby Maguire, he beat out Jude Law, he, he beat out Ewan mcgregor, Christian Bale and Heath Ledger for that role. He got the script because Jeffrey Rush, Captain Barbosa were, they were working together on a film called Ned Kelly.

And so he shows the script to Orlando and says, hey, you should probably be a part of this. And that's how Orlando Bloom Blips on the radar for this film. So it was through Jeffrey Rush who they also, got, they, they cast because they knew he wasn't gonna try to do an off the wall thing.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

Like they knew he was gonna kind of play it classic or I, you know, right, there's only sort of room for one huge personality and Johnny Depp takes up a lot of space in that way.

 

RJ Aguiar

Orlando brings this twink energy. That is the perfect. He's so, he's still so fresh faced and he's still so just, just, just like young and he looks like a child and it's weird because no, Kiera Knightley was the child. She's the one who's literally 17 when they're filming all this and yet Orlando, like, looks the same age as her and he looks, if anything almost looks younger than her.

Yeah. And it's just so fresh face and Bambi eye like, and I think that's the part that he brings that like I've seen, he, I know Heath Ledger's got comic timing and so he could have maybe he held his own and then you see Jude Law have that rapport with Robert Downey Junior in the Sherlock Holmes movies. So he's got, he's got timing.

But I think what, what Orlando brings is that twink energy that I don't think any of those other guys because they're too kind of like ruggedly handsome, you know what I mean? Whereas like Orlando is very, just like, like fresh faced, even when he has a full freaking beard he still looks like. So he looks like a baby.

 

Helen Grossman

There's, there's an interesting dynamic, like the dynamic between the two guys between Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp. Lovely. Like I, I loved it. I could have watched it forever. The chemistry between Kiera Knightley and Orlando Bloom. Not 100% there for me. You loved, you loved it.

 

RJ Aguiar

I, I maybe it's because I relate because, because she is so fucking gorgeous in that film.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

Like they make an ethereal beauty.

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah.

 

RJ Aguiar

But at the same time she's got spunk. She's, you know, the whole, the whole time, like there's multiple like corset jokes. And so of course, you know, it's their very, very cheeky way of being like she doesn't fit traditional gender norms.

 

Helen Grossman

And I was like, I, I think her chemistry with Johnny Depp was pretty astounding like those on the island where they're dancing and they're drinking the rum that there's real chemistry there, you know, and so, but I think that's also just like the dynamism again of the Johnny Centric film, right?

That no, you can't help as we, the audience are the same as her. Like we love Orlando. Like we like flirting with him. He's cute. But like when we're on an island with Johnny Depp, how can you resist? You know, how can you resist?

 

RJ Aguiar

She does? She does very well and then, and then she burns and get the drop on it. Yeah.

 

Helen Grossman

I it took me out of the movie honestly recognizing and realizing how young she was and realizing that there were really no other women in the movie.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

And don't you dare to fame my girl, Zoe Sal Donna like that.

 

Helen Grossman

No, I mean, Anna Maria, Anna Maria the Pirate. Like she's good. She's got a couple lines like a a again like there are, there are, there are women. She's the only other woman with a line. I'll say that Zoe Saldana but and she has two lines. But when you think about Kiera Knightley being 17 on this set with no other women or with only Zoe Saldana and essentially the silent women who serve her and dress her and are her like nurse maids or whatever.

Like it. That to me is one of the things that felt the most dated and that I honestly didn't even recognize until watching it. This most recent time was thinking this is so bizarre that there's only one woman in this whole movie with a speaking role.

 

RJ Aguiar

I mean, at the same time, like this is also an, you know, we're, we're in the 17th, 18th century here you know, so it's not, it's not that far off base, but, you know, you're right, like you do, you do definitely raise a point, especially if they're gonna make it a point to have like a girl pirate. Why does she not have more of a role? And it sucks because like, Zoe Saldana had such a terrible time making that film.

It's why she never, she didn't come back for any of the Sequels. She hated her time on, on that film because there were so many egos flying around and how she like, just because of like the treatment she got of the, she wasn't high enough on the call sheet to the point where like Jerry Bruckheimer had to like, formally apologize to her years later to just be like, yeah, I heard it was terrible.

 

Helen Grossman

It's such a common Disney trope, right? That there's all these mother, motherless women and it felt so unnecessary to have that for Kiera Knightly. Our first shot, the first opening scene of the film is the Boat from England and it's her when she's 11 or 12 and all the men are sort of talking about her around her and she's reading novels, right?

And so we, I love this because as an English major, right? I was like, oh, this is about women, this is about women reading and like, everyone's commenting on like, oh, like you don't put all these silly ideas into your head about adventure you know, it's actually fascinating.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah, that's what concerns me.

 

Helen Grossman

Exactly. Exactly. Right. Like, here's a woman who dares to find things interesting.

 

RJ Aguiar

You know what? You know, the women weren't just there to ogle the men. They were there to, like, prove that they could swash and buckle along with the men. Yeah. It's like the only other women that have lines in that film are like, yeah, Miss Swan, they come to kidnap you or it's the, the, the girls that, that slapped Jack when he first got to Tortuga, which I, I had even, I had even said like, especially this is high school.

And so they, you know, I may have gone to UCF and subsequently had to work at Disney. And so I'm like, oh, if I played Jack Sparrow as like the character at Disney, I would have a standing joke with all the princesses that they would come up and slap me if they ever saw me.

 

Helen Grossman

I love that you planned that. I know. I know I've got to get ready. Yeah. Were there parts of the movie that watching it? Now? You felt like this feels really revolutionary. You know, we've talked about the Johnny Depp character. Were there other pieces like, you know, there, there's a lot of CG I in this movie.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah. Although we had, we had, what was so interesting is that it's not like there was a lot of shit that was revolutionary for the era re like, again, the fact that it was a pirate movie actually was, felt kind of nostalgic, but it was the first time that you had seen these things that we had come to know and expect from other films, the fact that you were seeing it from Disney and from this genre that you're not normally used to seeing, you know, contemporary style action and effects,

you know, used it, it, you know, that's what, what kind of I think felt more revolutionary or more more groundbreaking for the era is that? Yeah, we had seen these things but not for in this exact configuration or way before up until like, like journalists and critics thought this movie was gonna flop like they did like, no, no. they initially offered Barbosa to Robert De Niro who's like, I'm not gonna be in a fucking pirate movie. I'm much less a Disney pirate movie.

 

Helen Grossman

I haven't been back to Disneyland in quite a long time. But they also transformed the rides, right? Like the ride, the rides going into this movie, my memory as a kid on these rides, I loved this ride mostly because it was really cool. Like it was a really, yeah, I thought it was really boring.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

I thought it was really boring but I thought it was, oh, really?

 

Helen Grossman

I see, I just was like this, this is like a 30 minute long ride. It's nice because we're in the dark, but there's really nothing memorable from it. There are no, you know, you're not really going down, you're not splashing, you're not getting like a roller coaster experience. So the there are moments like the brief illusions in the film, like when they're in the jail and he's like rattling the key that's from the ride. And that's like these like tiny moments where you're getting the

ride in it, which I think is, I don't even know if that's still in the current ride. But it's funny because you, you would never go into that movie having only been on the ride thinking that it was gonna be what it was right? Because the ride itself was kind of ambiguous. It didn't really, you know, you, you don't know who the pirates are, you don't know what their story is.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yes. Yeah, you're right. Exactly. So, so when they, when they first did a pirate script, when Disney first didn't, I think it was, 01, it was just, you know, a prison guard breaks the pirate free to go save a girl. That was it. And it was, it wasn't until Bruckheimer signed on. That was like, we should add this magic, supernatural sort of element to it.

which was, which was part of the ride sort of if you read. You know, I, so, so that was it, yeah, it was just so interesting how you're right. Like it, it got to sort of fill in so many gaps that were there. But at the same time, like, it doesn't, what works so well about it is because you, you, you don't have to have rode the ride to appreciate the film.

But if you were there and you knew how to, how to catch all the little wink, wink nudge, nudge moments, it was, you know, it, it made it that much more fun to, to, to watch. And it was, and it was weird because like, yeah, I was familiar with the ride. I, you know, I grew up there and I grew up kind of hating it. And then when they, when they changed it, it was, it was interesting because they, the, the jack sparrow animatronic is so lifelike.

It's terrifying. Like, it is literally like my, some of my friends were convinced that they had to hire an actor that just did the same motion over and over and like, no animatronics are just that good and yet they still have their original pirate ones from like the sixties next to it that are just like,

 

Helen Grossman

like one of the things that I liked most about the movie were the moments when the filmmaking actually feels like you're on the ride. Like, I think the sequence is kind of the best example of that. Yeah, when you're going, it's sort of, it almost feels like it's a single shot. Like you're going through the town and you see people coming out of the windows and you go into the tavern and the guys like a, yeah.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah. And well, and, and, and if, and if you know the ride you'll know which costume, which characters in which costumes are alluding to which, which characters on the ride. Like it's, it's so, it's done so subtly and, yeah, I, it's invisible if you're not familiar with it.

And that's like some of the best Easter egging is, is done in that way where it's, it is seamless and you never really think about it until you un unless it, you know, you know, enough, the source material well enough to catch it.

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah, there was one moment. I mean, I was looking at, I was really combing through this rewatch being like what feels 2003, it feels dated and, and to its credit, it really feels quite timeless. There are parts of it that really do, you know, elements of it that feel timeless. I think that the lack of the lack of women really stood out to me. And then the sort of colonial perspective also really stood out to me that this is a movie that's about the Caribbean and there's essentially no

people of color in it except for the pirates, which is, you know, which is interesting, but the perspective that we're getting is like, our heroes are sort of upholding the colonial, you know, they're, but not really pirates. In the end will Turner and, and Miss.

 

RJ Aguiar

But I think that's why it felt, it felt fresh for the day, you know, because it was like, no, we're not gonna, we're not going to follow the crowd. We're not gonna, you know, it's, and especially in the, in the subsequent films, they really lean into, like, no, you're rooting, you are, you are team pirate this entire film.

 

Helen Grossman

we're not rooting for the Royal Navy here. Yeah. Right.

 

RJ Aguiar

Exactly. And so it's like, and in that way, it felt vaguely fresh for the time. But if you really think about it, it's not that fresh.

 

Helen Grossman

The, there was one other moment where the pirates, say it was a fleeting moment but the pirates are like, stays there. Like, can we say Parlay? And then they're like, who would have ever thought of the word Parlay?

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

And they're like the French?

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah. And that was the other like little memo where I was like, oh, this is a 2003 movie because the French hate, you know, like, especially if they complete it and edit it in 2003. If they think that what comes out in July freedom Fries are happening.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

We're in the thick of it, you know, honestly, one, the, one of the only moments where I was like, oh, we're, we're in the, yeah, it's interesting because then when you look at, the trajectory of Johnny Depp just kind of as a human.

 

RJ Aguiar

So much of what comes to be kind of the, the, the downfall that happens later on, like all of those seeds were, were, were kind of sown as a result. Like, like during this specific inflection point in his career where he takes off because now he's bankable. The this one particular inflection point is such a is such a magical, you know, moment in time and yet that pendulum swings so ends up swinging so hard in the opposite direction, but doesn't do it quickly.

It happens a lot slower. It's not just the Jack Sparrow character because then when you look at the roles he takes after pirates, you know, 12 and three, the expectation now is that he's gonna take this big swing and this direction that you don't expect. And you know, when he does Charlie and the Chocolate Factory like that, like so much of what colors that performance is, you can tell he's trying to take a, take a AAA similar creative risk and take a similar leap.

And hope hoping that it'll pay off in the same way and it, I'm sorry, you can't do that when you're up against Gene Wilder. The that that's them's the rules. So, so yeah, like so much of what?

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah, he's constantly navigating trying to be Jack sparrow and not trying to be Jack Sparrow, right? To bring that audacity to the role, whatever role it is, but also to create something original and maybe it's like he created something so original that it's impossible to live up.

 

RJ Aguiar

Lightning can't strike twice.

 

Helen Grossman

I mean, does, does Jack Sparrow ever leave Johnny?

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

No, he's literally has the fucking tattoo. So, no, I mean, I think it's, it's hard to talk about this now without talking about the trial, right? And how that, I mean, so recent, recent, you're also talking to the Amber heard of Gay youtube.

 

RJ Aguiar

So there's a whole like that, it, it, it takes on such a, a complete like 1 80 left a in the, in, in retrospect, like following all of that controversy as much as I had to avoid it as much as I could because it was so intensely triggering. But, but in order to, in order to analyze the backlash of Amber, heard, you have to look at the sort of emotion fueling that because like when you look at something like pirates that can, that can become so seminal to so many people.

And so, and be such a a relic of, of, of a, of a more innocent time in their life, you know, any time you put a piece of art out you, I mean, you may still own it in a legal sense. But then if a if a person has a meaningful experience associated with it that they own that. And now all of a sudden here was this story that threatened the experience that it threatened the integrity of that experience in their, in

their heads. And so naturally they're gonna be so resistant to it if you have to accept that that person was engaging in abusive behavior either during it or as a result of it.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

Yeah, it does kind of tape the experience and people don't want for that, that to be the case from the very first moment.

 

Helen Grossman

And we talked about this from the very first moment that we see Johnny Depp in this movie, he's a, an antihero but a hero nevertheless, right? Like we know he's sort of funny. He's self effacing, he's, you know, doesn't take himself too seriously. He's morally ambiguous, right? Like, but he's the hero of our film. I mean, in my mind, undoubtedly he is the hero of this film.

 

RJ Aguiar

Yeah, I mean, he ends up, he ends up being so e even if that doesn't, even if that wasn't the intention on the page, it definitely becomes true when he embodies that character in that way. And it's just such a treat to watch part of, of what the appeal was, especially when I was so young. Is, it was, yeah, it felt rebellious.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

It, he was the bad boy that was still Disney approved to, to bring it sort of full circle.

 

Helen Grossman

It's like we talk about pirates, like there's a literal definition for pirates and then there's also like another ancillary definition of pirates. Just the one who steals another person's work, right? And I, I feel like Johnny Depp has sort of continued to pirate. He stole the the role of the abused partner in this relationship through this. There is a, there is a piracy that happens and again, he just continues to be Jack sparrow.

 

RJ Aguiar

A lot of people are probably gonna clip this after the fact and be like, but you were so you were praising him so much and then now you're like fucking with a chainsaw. And I'm like, both of these things are true. Like people are complicated. He could, he, the, the fact that he is clearly an insanely gifted performer and artist like I, no one's ever gonna take that away.

But yeah, the, the, the fr infuriating uncomfortable excruciating reality is that all of these things are true and all of these things exist simultaneously and as much of an abusive piece of shit, he turned out to be, I could still watch him on fucking Disney Plus.

...

 

Helen Grossman

Ok. Well, I know we've been going on for a while but before we, before we end, what do we love? What are our love its about this film and about Pirates of the Caribbean. You were so excited to talk about it.

 

RJ Aguiar

What do we love? He loves the writing, he loves the writing, we loves We love any film that has a, a bisexual hero. It strikes a beautiful, sweet spot in so many ways. In terms of like, it takes itself serious as serious as it have to but still has fun. It is wholesome enough but still rebellious and bad. you know, it, it, it, it, it just, it is about the ride but it's not, it, it just toes the line in so many ways so beautifully that I, I can only hope to accomplish that as a filmmaker at a

future date. It's just 10 out of 10, no notes. I assume there's gonna be a hate it afterwards. And I'm like, and the only thing I'm gonna hate is gonna be like, everything that I had to sort of learn and take away after the fact.

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah, I mean, we loved it. We loved it for what it accomplished in the era that it accomplished it and we hates it for forcing us to reconsider it. Yeah.

 

RJ Aguiar

It's, it's that com, it's one of those movies that, it's that comfy sweater of just like. Yeah. Yeah. You've had it since high school and like, every time you step into it, it just takes you back to a more innocent time in your life.

 

Helen Grossman

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. Every time I think about it, I think about being at family camp. My whole family used to go to camp for a week and we were up in the mountains in San Bernardino and we went to this tiny little theater in Blue Jay and I saw this movie, I think probably for the third time and every time I watch it, I think about going to Blue Jay and seeing this movie.

I mean, it really is the kind of movie that, that takes you back in a way that, that other films just don't. And it, there's something so visceral about it. The memories of it are so visceral.

 

RJ Aguiar, Helen Grossman

Any last thoughts on, on Pirates that we didn't cover just, just a hard like if you're, if you're drinking rum and the sun is out, wear lots of sunscreen and drink a lot of water because you will burn to it. It, it sneaks up on you, it sneaks up on you and it'll burn you to a freaking crisp much like the rum was burned to death in the film.

 

Helen Grossman

Well, thank you. And what's a pirate's way of saying goodbye?

 

RJ Aguiar

I think a pirate's goodbye is me stabbing you in the chest and then kicking your corpse overboard.

 

Helen Grossman

Thanks again to RJ for bringing his incredible pirates of the Caribbean knowledge to our show. Now it's time to switch gears for our song of the week and this is one RJ requested without a moment's hesitation. So if you remember the plot of Pirates of the Caribbean or you know, if you just listen to the last 40 minutes of this show, you know that Barbosa's pirates aboard the Black Pearl are kind of these zombie pirates cursed with semi immortality and they need to break their curse

with Will Turner's blood and his gold Aztec coin in order to be brought back to life. It's perfect. Then that this week's song of the week is none other than Bring Me To Life. By Evanescence. Evanescence was one of the most popular bands in 2003. Thanks to this song, Bring Me To Life, which broke them out of their Christian rock bubble and into the mainstream rock charts.

It was originally featured in a scene of the movie Daredevil in February 2003. And then it was released as Evanescence's lead single from their album Fallen on April 7th, 2003. It became an instant hit, propelled the band to global success and top of the charts in five countries which at the time really was a rarity for female led rock groups.

It was kind of a confounding song for its moment. Amy Lee, the lead singer of Evanescence has this haunting and delicate voice and it's paired with this composition of metallic guitar and a label mandated rap track by Paul mccoy. The song is probably the best remembered and best Survivor to this day of the new metal, new Goth Moment of 2003. As the song opens a slow piano intro sets a dramatic tone and then a 21 year old Amy Lee begins singing and it feels fragile, almost unsure. How

can you see into my eyes? Like open doors. She sings. Needing You down into my core where I've become so numb. The tempo of the song rises. The digital effects kick in and suddenly we're in a new metal rap rock song. Once the chorus hits we're fully in, we're hooked. Wake Me up. Can't wake up. Save me mccoy sings slash grunts slash raps behind Amy Lee as she croons or really demands of us. Wake me up inside. call my name and save me from my dark. Save me from the nothing I've become

...

 

Helen Grossman

in many ways. The song feels musically inseparable from the moment it came out the rap track, the new metal guitar sounds, the digital effects. It's all very 2003, but it's also proven to be kind of timeless. It even shot back up to number one on itunes in August 2022. And if you discounted it for all of those reasons, I just listed try giving it a listen.

Now. It's pretty catchy and honestly cathartic to scream along with Lee, wake me up, save me from my dark. So that's the song of the week. Just a reminder if you have a song you'd like to request or a 2003 memory to share, you can call in and leave a voicemail at 724 class 03 or you can write us an email at class of 03 pod at gmail dot com. Thanks again to RJ Aguilar for sharing his thoughts on Pirates of the Caribbean this week, as well as making me listen to Evanescence for the first time in probably 20 years. This show class of 03 is completely independent and is produced, written and edited by me, Helen Grossman. If you like it, please subscribe and like it wherever you listen to podcasts, it's a work in progress but your support means everything to me.

Our theme music is by Luke Schwartz and Evan Joseph of Sawtooth, who also composed most of the music you hear throughout the episode. Our logo art is by Maddie Herbert of Dame Studio. Until next week, class dismissed.